Following the announcement yesterday from West Coast Railways that they are suspending the Jacobite steam train, the Office of Road and Rail have released a statement.
They say that for a number of years heritage operators have been aware of the need for central door locking or an exemption.
In addition, they say that although they are assessing the current exemption application; they are disappointed that WCR chose to sell tickets when it wasn’t certain if the exemption would be granted and that WCR have made no contingency plans.
The full ORR statement is below
“All heritage operators were told several years ago that in order to operate after 31 March 2023 they either needed to fit central door locking or obtain an exemption from us. West Coast Railway’s application for an exemption failed and they made a claim for judicial review. A temporary exemption was granted in order to maintain the status quo, enabling WCR to operate whilst the litigation reached a conclusion. Despite this, WCR chose to sell tickets when it was far from certain that a new application for an exemption would be granted, either in time for the commencement of services or at all. It submitted an exemption application on 8 March, which we are now assessing. ORR is disappointed that WCR appears not to have made sensible contingency plans for the benefit of their customers.”
ORR Spokesperson
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Responses
We moan about health and safty requirements in this modern age, and I do enough moaning myself. However the fact is that there are far more stupid people around than there ever used to be. Just look at the idiots riding a bike whilst texting, listening to music or just on the phone as one example. No one can be trusted not to do something stupid anymore, sadly inconveniencing the rest of us.
I agree but, people have their own responsibilities to keep themselves safe. If they stick their heads out of a train window or open the door whilst the train is in motion despite warnings on the windows and doors, it’s their own fault.
As ever it’s (some of) the comments that provide entertainment. The ones along the lines of “nanny state ‘elf & safety” remind me of conversations with my father who talks about “…back in the day when drink-driving was okay”. Yes, we ran all sorts of trains and did all sorts of things without SDL or many other protections we now take for granted….but that was then. We’re fortunate that we have laws and standards that evolve over time, even if not everyone appreciates that fact.
WCR have known for years they would have to fit CDL and relied on exemption after exemption, which the ORR have rightly said enough is enough. Other companies such as Locomotive Services have fitted CDL to their stock at considerable expense, resulting in higher fares and are rightly annoyed that WCR have had these exemptions.
Perhaps the usual ScotRail service will be pretty busy this year! It’s much cheaper, gives equally good views and the staff are pretty friendly.
Vintage cars run on the road network with reduced regulations – seat belts and mot’s for example. Why should vintage railways be treated differently?
Good point, but perhaps the potential amount of passengers at risk on a herirage train is far higher ?
In a car if you fall out you’ll have some nasty injuries but you’re likely to survive… You fall out of a moving train up to 75mph your not surviving… If you don’t get sucked under the train through the vaccum effect (if you’ve ever stood on a platform and a fast train has nearly knocked you off your feet through the wind generated) the emergency services will be picking bits of your body up that’s strewn across the track… Or if you hit a signal, tree or anything else on the lineside your likely also not to survive the horrific injuries you’d receive..
WCR have had safety incidents related to the doors they believe and argued in court that having a steward on board at the doors is safe but the report by the judge stated that in one incident the steward was “overpowered” by a customer and they opened the door as the train was pulling into the platform. Only platform staff stopped the person getting off.. not only is it dangerous for the person opening the door to try get off but also imagine standing on a platform the door opens and hits you or a child in the face… That can knock them off balance and they could end up falling between the train and the platform and then it’s goodnight Vienna.. the next place that person is going is half a day out with the undertaker…
This door locking business has gone too far. We are aware of numerous accident instances of cars crashing into water areas and the impossibility of opening the doors or winding windows down to escape due to the electrics. So the passengers drown.
So with a Mk 1 coach with central electrical locking and an accident, how are the passengers to get out from the derailed coach ?
Are the coaches to have second and third, battery and radio frequency backup systems like aircraft – No ! Did not think so.
I do not want the ORR to say that “Oh Dear, we´ll just draw a line under this accident and move on !”
CDL systems have emergency overrides fitted
Another comment on this matter that is sticking to this “blame the silly nanny knows best , over the top on elf and safety, bods at the ORR.The ORR are doing their job correctly.ALL rail operating companies MUST be fully compliant.It is MAIN LINE not garden railway.
WCR are the ones fully in the wrong here.
Potential yes, but right across all the heritage railways of Europe not just Britain the number of accidents and accounts of incidents is pitifully small across many years of service. It just seems that the ORR are just ‘OTT’ and determined to add crippling costs to a great tourist attraction. They’ll be wanting Fences along the platform edge next, (which oddly enough represents a greater threat when platforms are busy than non central locking doors ever did)
It’s just too far, hands off this lovely old attraction to Malaig.
Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the demise of the steam service, surely there’s an opportunity here for another operator to step in and fill the slots with more modern stock? After all the spectacular views are the same whatever train you’re in. With a commentary on the PA system explaining the route and its history, and some clever branding, it could be a worthwhile tourist attraction in its own right, commanding a higher fare than the service trains.
Their are regular Train services that run thet route I believe, Operated by Scot Rail.
People book the Jacobite specifically for the Steam Locomotive and the Classic carriages, as well as many Harry Potter fans/superfans booking it too, as a Steam Enthusiast and a big HP fan, I’d have loved to go on the Jacobite train(Hogwarts Express) and my family who are also HP fans would have aldo loved it, but 1. Fort William is around 4 and a half hours away from us, so we’d struggle to get there and 2. The service is now suspended and who knows if it’ll return.
I really hope they can come up with a solution and the Jacobite does return sometime soon.
The sorry state of affairs that Mr Marshall touches on here, really need investigating by someone in authority as soon as possible.As well as the situation relating to WCR’s disgusting conduct regarding their operation licence , it might be necessary to examine what legal breaches they may have made in continuing to sell tickets for the Jacobite, when they really should not have done so.
People who now might well not get their places on the planned excursions might consider their respective legal positions in civil law.But is it worse that that.Are WCR now in position where fraud might have occurred?
NeilT
I fear that you are drifting into the area once known as common sense I have a feeling the same as me that it is time that we had a comfy lockable train that would hopefully exclude those “people” that insist of hanging out of the windows shouting and waving to the detriment of others enjoyment.
Disappointing for 2024 intending passengers, yes another operator could step in and why not ScotRail? I’d have thought the operation is profitable, so the risk is small and the goodwill made could attract a % of the customers to access the Jacobite via normal public services – all good for trade.
🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃
We have a trip booked for 3rd April 2024 on the day of our 2nd wedding anniversary, having been unable to book it the previous year due the excessively high demand for tickets. We were so frustrated at missing out in 2023 & were over the moon that we got onto the booking site in time to beat the queue to book for 2024, only to find out less than a week later of the potential cancellation/suspension issues, borne out of the Dec 2023 ORR ruling !
Whilst WCR should obviously shoulder most of the blame here due to their arrogance in even opening the booking site for 2024 to allow the public to book tickets for 2024, there are other as yet unanswered questions, as ORR are not entirely blameless here.
After ORR’s refusal to extend the exemption in Dec & rightly so, given this dispute has obviously been ongoing for a number of years, why on earth did ORR not take further steps by suspending WCR’s license to operate at that time to prevent WCR opening bookings for 2024, which would have forced WCR to act proactively in taking at least some preliminary steps to move forward with installing CDL or potentially replacing rolling stock, in time for the start of the 2024 season ?
And why have ORR not taken steps to revoke WCR’s license since the ruling in December, as they must have been fully aware that WCR were continuing to take bookings, up until Wednesday’s suspension ?
Hundreds of people are affected who have blindly been allowed to make bookings, with many purposely arranging travel plans from overseas to embark on the trip, plans that are now in disarray, including ours , although fortunately we live in Scotland.
Next question, given the 2024 season was supposed to start on 28th March 2024, why has WCR left it so late to submit a fresh appeal on 8th March 2024 & why have they only officially cancelled bookings for 28th to 30th March 2024, following Wednesday’s service suspension announcement ?
Yesterday, we received an email from WCR clarifying that our planned trip on 3rd April 2024 had not been cancelled (not yet anyway) & that if we wish, we could cancel ourselves for a full refund but this beggars the question- why only cancel the first 3 days of the 2024 season, when our trip is only 12 days away, as it clearly seems obvious that further cancellations will be required ?
From an earlier post it appears clear that Mark 1 heritage rolling stock cannot actually be modified to accommodate CDL systems, which is presumably the ORR declared way back in 2002 that “RSR regulation 4 prohibited the operation of Mark I rolling stock after 31 December 2002 unless it had been modified to prevent, so far as practicable, over-riding in the event of a collision” on the basis that “Mark 1 rolling stock is less crashworthy than modern stock and there are risks to passengers from pull down windows and the absence of central door locking”.
So based on the above, if the conversion of Mark 1 technically not feasible, WCR have actually had 21 years to potentially replace their Mark 1 rolling stock, with at least Mark 2 rolling stock which I understand can be suitably converted with CDL systems, or is it perhaps the case of insufficient Mark 2 rolling stock being available, which has prevented WCR from changing the rolling stock, hence an Exemption Application being the next best option ?
There are obviously unanswered questions by WCR & ORR (particularly WCR) who should both be collaborating together on this, not banging each other’s heads, particularly given the financial implications to the local economy & tourist industry in the surrounding areas, which will clearly be heavily affected by this ridiculous scenario, which has obviously been lingering for far too long, not to mention the well documented potential cost to WCR.
On a personal note, perhaps hopefully 2024 will be the year this ongoing dispute is settled once & for all for everyone’s benefit and maybe, just maybe, we will be 3rd time lucky next year to possibly re-book our Wedding Anniversary trip but who on earth knows ?
In any case, everyone involved needs answers, sooner, rather than later !
We are here in Scotland from Canada, and only found out once we were in country. With the WCR knowing full well they needed a certificate and failed to act, then knowingly sold tickets, I’m thinking a lawsuit is in order, and will be looking into it once back in Canada. This is fraud. Hotels and train tickets booked. Now just the hotel. Going to make the best of it, but not going down without a fight.
Bob I suggest you read the legal case which is available online.. WCR claimed it would cost millions to fit CDL however LSL costed at £32,000 per carriage.. considering WCR made over a million pounds last year they cannot complain… Other operators are having to do it to stay operational… WCR railway think their special and are so arrogant with safety. There has been a number of incidents that WCR being involved in ALONE including a really dangerous situation as a train was pulling into the platform… Only platform staff stopped the person getting off and stopped a dangerous safety incident occurring..
ORR aren’t doing it to be nick picky but they are doing it because if someone was to lose a life then not only is WCR to blame so is the ORR.. WCR has known about the rule for five years plus they still not want to invest in safety systems because they believe Stewards at the doors is safe but as the legal case has shown a passenger over powered a steward.. steward alone isn’t safe… Imagine a kid opening the door when the train was going along or pulling into the platform they could end up under the train and bits of body parts and internal organs being picked up by the British transport police or worse significant injuries if they were to hit something like a signal post, a tree, a wall or bridge..
ORR are just a bunch of Jobsworths.
What a clever and nonsensical reply
Totally agree. Why is a central locking system even needed. How many people have fallen out of railway carriages over the decades. Anser is simple. Get people to sign a document accepting the risk that if they hang out the door they might fall it.
Comment I found elsewhere:
I’ve got a copy of Report to the Minister of Transport on the Accidents that occurred on the Railways of Great Britain during the year 1962, and the figures for entering or alighting from trains are pretty shocking:
1960: 7 killed, 1,190 injured
1961: 6 killed, 1,144 injured
1962: 4 killed, 904 injured
The 1979 edition shows:
1978: 1 killed, 31 seriously injured, 685 slightly injured
1979: 2 killed, 40 seriously injured, 678 slightly injured
For falling out of carriages during the running of trains, the figures are:
1960: 13 killed, 25 injured
1961: 16 killed, 24 injured
1962: 16 killed, 23 injured
1978: 3 killed, 22 seriously injured, 31 slightly injured
1979: 4 killed, 19 seriously injured, 617 slightly injured
Seems to me that the ideal solution for some would be to lock the staff of ORR onto the train at Fort William and never unlock it! In truth WCR are either going to have to fit central locking asap or hire in a train set which already has it. Just a shame for tourists and the local economy whilst talk of main line trains conjures up visions of Kings Cross and Euston whereas Fort William to Mallaig is more like a branch line. A pity heads were not banged together a few years ago and a programme of conversion started.
Those are pretty good stats given the number of journeys made by trains using slam door stock back in the day. Are we really at a point where everyone single risk has to be mitigated to the point that humans don’t need to think for themselves and that our ability to look after ourselves devolves to the point we can try every handle, push every button step off every cliff without consideration for the consequences.
The second ‘R’ in ORR stands for Road, as I’m sure we all know. The ORR could spend more of their time and budget making our roads safer, which are like the Wild West in comparison, than locking down the railways to the point they’re barely viable.
I agree, the roads are like the wild west around my way, no traffic enforcement. Compel highway authorities to attend to potholes without fail and require red light cameras (with speed functions, tax, MoT and insurance checking thrown in for good measure) to be fitted to all traffic lights. Also, stipulate that only fully qualified and experienced people design road layouts. Railway signalling requires IRSE licences for example, road transport enginerring requires what qualifications?
Why on earth have they continued to sell tickets?? It appears that this has problem been going on for some time, yet I had not heard anything about this until I received an email from WCR yesterday. If people are stupid enough to attempt to jump or lean out of a moving train, then perhaps it’s Natural Selection at work! Is it really that difficult to install the required locks, anyway?
We have booked to go on this train in August 2024, and made the booking as soon as the tickets became available. We are travelling from Australia and only in Scotland for a very short time. We have built our itinerary around this, and it’s the only reason we are flying into Glasgow and staying 2 nights in Fort William.
Now it appears that we MAY have to completely change our itinerary, but will not know until goodness knows when.
You can still travel on the normal scotrail train on the same route
Locking the doors is a risk in the event of a derailment is it guaranteed the doors will release? I wish the ORR would be as concerned with trains with 800 passengers hurtling along at 100 Mph with no Guard or whatever name train conductor. They obviously haven’t listed the risks what could happen to passengers.
It’s not labour intensive as the doors can be locked /unlocked by I believe a flick of a switch by the guard in seconds.
My understanding is the problem is driven by so-called steam enthusiasts and tourists hanging out of windows and doors to get photos despite the best efforts of staff?
I would stick my head out of the window. If I get it taken off by a branch or a train I am a nob and deserve it.
FFS!
Well said Peter 👍,
It’s all about common sense, when we visited the Paignton & Dartmouth Steam railway whilst on holiday last year, I had my head out of the window for most of the way from Paignton to Kingswear, that smell of Coal and Steam is the best, all I did was just briefly put my head back inside the carriage when I saw a tree or tunnel coming up.
I can get why they’d be more cautious about it on a mainline with other trains passing and obstacles that could cause injury, but again, it’s peoples common sense, if you can see something coming up that Could injure you just pop your head back inside the carriage until you’ve passed it.
I do think health & Safety has gone way too far in this country, there’s one thing being safe, that’s fine, but going over the top and trying to wrap everyone in Cotton wool like this country seems to be doing is just so wrong on so many levels in my opinion, it should be people’s responsibility to use their common sense and ensure they stay safe.
Passengers can open doors at any point no central locking’ a gaurd on each and every door is the workable ( expensive) option.
Retro fitting central locks seems too pricey for them.
The guard might be incapacitated….
West Coast railways knew this was coming, they’ve had plenty of time and opportunity to get their act together,but no,they just thought they can do as they like and it’s bitten the on the backside.
No sympathy for them
For the record, are these the same steam train enthusiast who think their nostalgia trip has been ruined by “nanny knows best ” ORR.This issue is deadly serious.Have you read the ORR statement about the, I’ll advised ,WCR continuing to sell tickets, when it was not legally, commercially or morally in the interests of the public to do so.
A very unfortunate situation. If the service has operated for years with traditional carriages then it seems ridiculous to for the authorities to try & enforce the need for central locking on what is effectively a heritage service. Equally, to blatantly ignore such a directive also isn’t the solution. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Indeed the poor people missing out are those that want to travel & out into the local economy. Time for the Scottish brethren to sit down like adults & thrash it out…
Totally disagree it is a charter train operated on the national network and why should west cost get away with when everyone else is complying with the new regulations ethier with central door locking or in there final year of an exemption. At the end of the day if west coast don’t want to do it that is a shame as they have had so much time to fix this issue but have effectivly come across of saving money and not bothered about people saftey
It’s not a heritage service.it runs on the West Highland Main Lone and West Coach Railways should have axdressd the issue.
The heritage trains should be exempt from this Health & Safety bollox. People who travel on these trains want to see them in the condition they were in when they were fully operational. This particular train attracts many many visitors, and no little income to the local community. That means nothing to the ORR, quite obviously.
Have you not read the forgoing posts.This is not rubbish from nanny knows best state intervention.For any “old rail vehicle”, be it be a coach or steam train they have to be up to mainline standards.The ORR is doing it’s job entirely correctly in this case.The attitude, actions. inactions, conduct and downright brinkmanship of this company is breathtaking and appalling.They continued selling tickets for Jacobite, when they knew ( or ought to have known) it was commercially and probably legally a huge risk.
They do not deserve any reasonable consideration or mitigating comments.
Let’s us hope the ORR take away there operating licence.
Can only agree.
They have had many years and chances to sort this out but choose to challenge the ORR.
If they don’t like the rules then quite simply they should not be in the business.
I agree; this heavy handed appraoch is typical of such organisations which are obsessed with Health and Safety. I call it meddling and pure noseyness. I heard from a knowlegable friend that someone ( a woman) from the ORR was ‘tipped off’ and secretly boarded one of the Jacobite trains last year, so causing unwarranted upset and potential loss of a facility that brings considerable value, not just financially, to the economy of the whole area. Thus unashamedly depriving tourists and rail enthusiasts in Scotland of a much loved and valued asset. Shame on them! Trains on the Jacobite run mainly at thirty miles per hour on single track so the risks are minimal to passengers.
Hastings Dieseks fitted Central locking to their 1957 built heritage DEMU over 20 years ago and runs tours on the mainline all over the country. I am a shareholder in Hastings Diesels. WCR could afford to do the same. Their own fault!!!
The proper execution of the ORR duties is not a “wrong” .They would be failing in their duties if they either “turned a blind eye” or gave WCR even more leeway.
I’m traveling to Scotland in May with tickets to ride… I have no knowledge of the situation but it appears many of you do. Any idea for how long this outage might last?
Hastings diesels are great, nothing less. But they are iI guess air braked. Jacobite stock is vac braked without an independent power supply to feed to the cdl power requirements. Therefore cdl is technically impossible to fit to mk1 or any vacuum loco hauled stock.
No, it’s not. A vac-braked railtour set in Ireland has CDL fitted, and the Hastings diesel units use an electro-magnetic system without any air supply. Chiltern fitted CDL to a vac-braked class 121 DMU as well.
My husband and i are booked on it May 25th I am keeping fingers crossed it’s sorted by then.
Once upon a time they had people in the armed forces who would order people to paint coal white before an inspection. They don’t want anally retentive individual’s in the army any more , so they’ve all been trained as health and safety officers.
Thats one of the funniest ,and truest things ive heard in years. Love to get that on a car sticker
Sorry, this flippant statement is really not helpful here.
We have booked to go on The Great Rail Journey Highland Adventure over Easter Weekend, how will the latest statement from the ORR affect us.
I don’t think locking all the doors before leaving Ft William is a good idea. What happens if there is an accident or, worse, fire and the passengers can’t get out?
I recall that some Mk 1 carriages had doors that you could open with a (quite stiff) interior handle, but others had no interior handle at all. In that case you opened the door by lowering the window and reaching for the outside handle.
I cannot see any way such doors with only outside handles could be opened “accidentally” causing people to fall out.
Couldn’t WCR undertake to remove all inside door handles from their fleet of coaches and get a further exemption on that basis, maybe in addition giving an undertaking to fit central locking by an agreed future date?
With respect, I am not sure you have followed them storyline on this, as it has evolved other last ( maybe 18 months).All trains that run on UK main lines have to be similarly compliant, with a one system that opens and closes all locking of train doors.WCR have been playing “brinkmanship” over this issue.Rather than attempt to comply with ORR , they took them to court, by way of judicial review ( a case they had no likelihood of winning).They now want another dispensation to operate without the necessary compliant door system.They are further “taking the Michael” by apparent “moral blackmail”.”If you don’t give us further dispensation to operate, don’t blame us if Jacobite train does not run”. Frankly, due to recent conduct of this company, they do not deserve to run trains on the main line.
WCR historically has had a number of safety related issues including quesdtionable numbers of SPADS. As you say, they’re attempting to use brinksmanship over central door locking. I wouldn’t book ANY trip that is run by WCR who ought not to have a licence to run anything outside of a OO single track loop (even then its questionable).
You make good points the main thing that would.concern me was if WCR are playing fast and loose with mainline rule what else are the proving lax in that could endanger paying customers and their own staff.
They have had years to update their stock, but have chosen not to do so. Everybody else has so it must be possible
Vintage trains opperate on several routes out of Tyseley in,Birmingham. They opperate very iconic GWR steam locos and don’t appear to have any issues
Have they coverted their carriage doors to a central locking system or do they opperate mark 2 coaches which I assume do have a safe locking system?
If other train operators are coping with the new regulations then I don’t think west coast have a leg to stand on.
Quite frankly, it is time that the lamentable and disgusting brinkmanship of this company come home to roost.They will have brought want happen to themselves by this conduct.The cancellation of The Jacobite ( and any other mainline steam contracts) will be down to them.The ORR should NOT give them further dispensation to operate).
I think it’s time that WCR are given a wake up call ORR needs to say too smith and shuttleworth enough is enough no more court action you sign an agreement with ORR by a set date saying you Will fit CDL or you WiLL LOSE your TOCI bet WCR will stop messing around and fit them because they will lose the right to run on mainline is this country on No account should ORR back down and give them permission to run the jackabites in mk 11 coaches
Having travelled on-board last weekends “Shap Mountaineer” I can confirm they are still using the old bolt method but have said that once things quieten down at the end of 2024 they’re going to try and make a start.
Typical people are enjoying something thats not allowed these days and the usual excuse elf and safety how did we manage in the past try common sense
I agree to a point but times have changed, some for the better, some not. At the end of the day WCR have had ample time to convert their rolling stock to comply with ORR legislation but chose not to. Their arrogance has caught up with them.
Whatever the issue and whether the blame lies with WCR is irrelevant to those of us who booked tickets and are travelling from abroad and building a whole holiday around this trip, and to the services along the way who benefit from the economic tourism of such trips. I really hope both WCR and ORR can stop squaring up to each other about it and find a solution…it’s of no benefit to anyone in the immediate to just cancel outright.
A quick Google search for “RAIB WCR” quickly explains why the company and the regulator have a beef with one another.
Surely there must be enough Mark 3 carriages are available for purchase or lease to enable WCR to continue the service.
Problem is MK3 Stock coaching stock was coupling compatible With class 43 HST powercars only only MK3 stock that were suitable with locomotive haulage were the MK3 Sleepers normally coupled MK4 stock
This isn’t the case. Locomotive Services Ltd have Mk3 passenger stock that is compatible with and used with locomotives such as the Class 47, 86, 87 and 90. The downside of air conditioned stock is that you can’t hear the locomotive, which is why Mk1 and Mk2 stock with opening toplight windows are used with steam locos.
Additional issues with Mark 3 coaches are that they are air braked and require an electrical power source to run the lights and air conditioning. Some steam locos are equipped with air brake as well as the original vacuum brakes, but an on board generator would be needed to provide auxiliary power supplies, or an ETH-fitted diesel loco dragged along (the old ETHEL converted Class 25 comes to mind). This adds dead weight to the load the steam loco has to haul (equivalent to more than three coaches), adds to the length for passing loops on the West Highland line, and ruins the aesthetics of a steam-hauled train having an ugly diesel loco in the formation.
Hello. Also are Mk 3 coaches cleared for the Jacobite route ? Do the Mk 1 have retentive toilets if not the next thing will be another ban Regards Mark
ORR and Network Rail should just ban WCRC from operating altogether until their coaches are fitted with CDL. Probably the only way they’ll listen and actually do it.
Totally agree tell smith and shuttleworth that they stop all court action and just sign an agreement with ORR to fit CDL OR THEY LOSE THEIR T O C
I have booked a five day holiday in Fort William so I can travel on the Jacobite, what do I do?
We are in the same situation. A special trip with our autistic son has now been made even more difficult.
There is a large chance you might be disappointed due to disreputable conduct by WCR.
The Ideal solution would be for the present owners to sell the business to someone else. The ORR might grant an exemption for The Jacobite for 1 year to the new owners to give them a chance to get their act together. Make no mistake failure to operate this popular 30 years old service will damage the local economy. Is it right that local people whose livelihood depends on this service operating should be dismissed as acceptable collateral in this feud between the ORR and WCR? Discuss.
Many of the passengers on heritage railways are younger adults and children who rarely use trains and if they do only know trains with automatic doors. I have seen families in a panic not knowing how to get in or out of the mark 1 carriages. As for using a leather strap to lower the window and reach out to find an external handle on a vintage carriage can be completely befuddling. It’s the reverse of people of my age complaining that the don’t know how to use their mobile phone and asking their four year old grandchild to show them. The argument we’ve done it like this for decades is irrelevant when people have not been alive during most of those decades. However I still there should be ways to operate traditional carriages safely but it requires a high level of stewarding and plenty of information giving. Might just be cheaper to fit the central locking!!
The cost of installing this equipment will take 7 to 10years to be paid off by the operator.
No new owner is going to be able to afford that overhead plus the purchase price.
WCR have had two decades to fittedCDL, while other operators have abided by the rules. Now they are saying its not cost effective, so why didn’t they use some of their profit they have earned over years to CDL. Its not the first time WCR has gone head to head with the ORR, infact they a history of it. People who are making the ORR out to be the bad guys in all this really need a reality check.
And yet they’ve had 19 years (since 2005) to comply, oh and every other operator seems to have managed.
Perhaps if the stewards that were part of the arrangement for their previous exemptions had done their job properly, and not been observed by the ORR ignoring their duties, WCR might just have had a chance on getting it renewed.
Health and safety been imposed upon us once again. This type of train has run for over 100 years with few fatalities due to falling out of doors.
Give people credit for common sense and allow the train to run as usual. This decision will cost local business hundreds of thousands over the season and could lead to job loses.
Sorry, you might not be saying that if one of your loved ones was injured because of lack of centrally operating doors.
You’ve clearly got a weird fixation with WCR. Nothing wrong with traditional doors on trains. Used all over the world still with no issues.
How many people fall out of an open carriage door and are killed each year since 1950?
How many pedestrians walking along the pavement are killed by motor vehicles each year since 1950?
Which is more dangerous
Thin end of the wedge this ! Truth be told this lot want them all got rid of possibly the reason for which is lack of interest in them ! Too much time spent doing other things. Get a grip and admit perhaps for the first time, safety and the like is simply common sense after everything is done and finish
Wrong, it’s not “few fatalities”, over the years of slam door stock being common it’s run into many thousands, all of which are now preventable.
Locking the doors is not an ootion as in the event of an accident everyone is locked in. That has been ourlawed for years. No thanks. And I’m afraid trusting to common sense especially with non English speaking visitors attracted from around the world is just fantasy. Other Heritage companies have successfully done the upgrades, they have had plenty of advance warning to solve the issue but the shareholders here obviously put profits over safety and assumed they would get a rolling exemption forever despite having known for years what they needed to do. They simply chose to ignore the issue and it’s caught up with them despite the high ticket prices they now charge.
No.I don’t want to see people injured and appreciate we need a proper regulation system for all main line rail operators.
Doors have always been locked on the Talyllyn and Ffestiniog due to limited clearances.
We all know that we are not to open a door when a vehicle is moving but in a time when common sense is not considered and a fast buck is being made by the claim culture environment preventative steps need to be taken.
I was told in my line of work that common sense no longer applies I was told my common sense might not be the same as the next man I don’t agree, so call it what you want its obvious you would not open the door while the train is in motion or I’m I been too respectful?
Only a complete idiot would open a door while a Train was moving, and if someone opened a door whilst still on motion and fell out the carriage and hurt themselves, as sad as that would be and as sorry you’d feel for them being hurt, it would be their own fault, as they did something they knew damn well that they shouldn’t do.
Common sense is common sense, every human being has it, just some people unfortunately choose to not use it.
Remember the southern stock running into Waterloo? The number of “complete idiots” is significant
The comments about common sense and historic use of doors has merit. However it does not address the fact that WCR appear to have arrogantly ignored the fact that regulations have been brought in which they have ignored the warnings and hoped to bully the regulator into granting a further exemption despite having made little obvious attempt to comply.
The impact on the businesses that have supported the WCR and the Jacobite throughout these years have been let down massively. They knew this needed to be sorted, and have done little to rectify the problem. Hospitality sectors may now start to see cancellations for bookings made because of this. Tickets should not have been sold knowing there was a strong possibility this could happen. Maybe now is the time to support some of the other local activities around the area, and promote the other wonderful attractions we have to offer.
Train have run over one hundred years without central locking are passengers not capable of opening doors themselves health and safety gone mad big brother is watching look out for further restrictions on personal choices 🙄
If they applied for the exemption on the 8th March just process it and get on with it! How many injuries have they had from people falling out of the train??
Just LOCK all the doors before leaving Fort William and only open them when they get to Mallaig.
Also When will this be be made compulsory on heritage lines?
I don’t know why common sense can’t prevail and people leave doors alone until the train has stopped and they can alight at a platform.
I remember when passenger operated doors were normal on all rolling stock. I also remember opening the doors as we were slowing down to stop at a station and jumping out to walk alongside the train. I did it rarely but it was very common.
Here’s a few more things they need to consider along with central door locking:
1. People jumping off platforms in front of trains.
2. Leaping off castle ramparts.
3. Sticking a metal rod into a plug socket
4. Jumping into canal locks.
Some people will continue to do stupid things however hard we try to stop them.
Stop nannying everyone else for a few idiots!
Here’s a few more things they need to consider along with central door locking:
1. Leaping off castle ramparts.
2. Sticking a metal rod into a plug socket
3. Jumping into canal locks.
Some people will continue to do stupid things however hard we try to stop them.
Stop nannying everyone else for a few idiots!
Some people will continue to do stupid things however hard we try to stop them.
Stop nannying everyone else for a few idiots!
The train also stops at Glenfinnan, so the doors would have to be unlocked and locked again there also to give people the opportunity of a brief look around. I would imagine this would be quite a labour-intensive operation.
I would suspect that there would be a switch in the guard/brake that would lock/unlock all the doors at the same time or perhaps coach by coach. Pretty quick to do I would imagine.
The majority of cars with central locking are unlocked by shock sensors similar to those which deploy the airbags, and emergency exits protected by secuirty door locking have green break glass points to release the doors in the event of an emergency.
As long as the system is designed by a really competant person, a safe system can be developed and installed.